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Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Margaret Maggie Anderson 
May 7, 1985 
Cassette 2, Side 2 
 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  00:04 
This is Kristin Boughton-Morin interviewing Margaret, also known as Maggie, Anderson. It is 
May 7, 1985, Seattle, Washington. We are on interview number two, tape number one, side B. 
You were telling me about your job. 
 
Margaret Anderson  01:36 
My new job, yeah. The, the other half time, the other half of my time, I'm going to be working in 
the chemical dependency treatment program as a counselor, dependency counselor. They have a 
six week outpatient treatment program, and then the seventh week, which involves family 
members. And I'm looking forward to that. That's really a very, a new career for me. I've been in 
mental health for a number of years, but I've not been, other than the months that I worked at the 
halfway house for recovering female alcoholics, I've not worked in an agency kind of setting as a 
chemical dependency counselor. But in my private work I've done, I've worked with a lot of 
people who were needing treatment, back in Duluth. And I can, I know of six people that I got, 
as a result of counseling, that went into treatment. And then out here, people that I've worked 
with, privately, have been mostly recovering alcoholics, [?adult children of alcoholics?]. That's a 
particular interest of mine, too. And there are other options working there to, if there's a 
particular group that I might want to do or be involved in, in the mental health program, I can be 
traded off couple hours a week on that program. So, there's just a lot, lot of freedom, a lot of 
flexibility. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  01:36 
Yeah, that's wonderful. So, you're moving right into a very supportive community. 
 
Margaret Anderson  03:12 
Mm-hmm, yeah. And working, and working mostly with women, which is what I like to do.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  03:19 
Have you been satisfied with the career you've chose?  
 
Margaret Anderson  03:24 
Basically, yes, although somebody starting out now, I would suggest that they not get a master's 
degree in social work. I would suggest that, going into, getting a degree in clinical psychology if 
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they want to do that kind of work. Simply because social workers are not, are not considered 
very, to be very important. I think most settings, you know, social workers aren't, just aren't 
considered, you know, to be that great. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  04:05 
Are they sort of a catch all for any number of? 
 
Margaret Anderson  04:10 
Well, like in medical settings, social workers are at the lower end of the ladder, nurses, I think 
make, probably now, this has changed, of course, nurses certainly make more money. And 
psychiatric nurses, in a lot of mental health programs that get nurses are considered more 
important and of more benefit in a program than a social worker. And some of that's because a 
lot of social workers don't have good clinical background. They don't have the kind of training 
that enables them to, to move into clinical settings. And the field isn't as big as it was. There was 
a lot more competition [inaudible], a lot of people come out of school now that really can't get 
jobs in the field.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  05:06 
It's wonderful you have such a job [?written down?] for you.  
 
Margaret Anderson  05:09 
Yes. I, I feel very grateful. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  05:17 
You were telling me earlier that your maiden aunts were trying to discourage you from becoming 
a teacher or nurse. And I was listening to our last interview, and you were naming off all your 
relatives, and they were all teachers or nurses. 
 
Margaret Anderson  05:33 
Right, that's all there was for women to do. Although, my mother did go to in, into the business 
setting. But she was, she couldn't go as far as she would have liked to in business, she was like a 
secretary, basically. And I'm sure that that there are some women, obviously, there have always 
been some women, who broke into other fields. For the average, the average person, I don't 
know what else there was.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  06:10 
Was social work and a new field for women when you got your masters?  
 
Margaret Anderson  06:16 
I don't, I really don't know. I can remember deciding, in 10th grade. Now, now I know that the 
person that came and talked to our 10th grade class was a visiting nurse, but she talked about 
visiting people in their homes and talking with them about problems and things. And I decided, I 
can remember thinking, that's what I wanted to do. But I also knew I was going to college. And 
so at some point, when I was in college, I heard about the school of social work. And that made 
sense, [inaudible] was what I wanted to do. 
 
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Kristin Boughton-Morin  06:48 
Was that-- was social work a relatively new field, period, in the '50s? Or had it, had it been 
traditional?  
 
Margaret Anderson  06:59 
I don't know. Let me think back to-- the graduate school that I went to, I think, actually was 
established in the '20s, 1920s, following the first World War, So, that, I think that in the States, 
certainly I think there had been social workers and graduate degrees around since the '20s and 
'30s. Now, I, again, I'm not so sure in Canada that was too, I would think probably more after the 
'40s [inaudible] graduate degrees. And actually, even at the School of Social Work that I first 
went to, at the University of Manitoba, was a bachelor's program. You went to that for a year 
after you got a bachelor's in arts or science or whatever else, and they, they weren't credited until 
probably the late, or, early '60s they became credited as a master’s program. So, I don't think so 
much in Canada, but I think probably in the States there were social workers around.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  08:08 
Can you talk to me a little bit about the changes you have seen as far as being a lesbian in the 
United States, basically where you've been living? What kind of changes have you experienced 
as far as social awareness and social acceptance, the things you can do, the places you go? I 
mean, there's been a lot of change in the last 30 years.  
 
Margaret Anderson  08:36 
Have I been here 30 years? Wow, yeah, I have. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  08:43 
Well, I'm thinking, 1955-- 
 
Margaret Anderson  08:40 
 Yeah, I have. I was accepted at that graduate school, even though I said that I was a 
homosexual. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  08:50 
Now that was at Smith's, do you think that had a special significance? 
 
Margaret Anderson  08:54 
I think so. I think that they had empathy for women there. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  09:00 
They probably had, were, been impressed that you were-- 
 
Margaret Anderson  09:05 
Well, there were probably, the, of the women that probably read my application at that time, they 
were probably lesbians themselves. I was aware of that after I got there. I, I don't know, you 
know, I really don't know because, as I said, I, I didn't associate with too many lesbians. I can 
remember, remember the bar. I don't think the bar scene has changed much. I think one of the 
differences now, maybe, is that there's places where you can go, where you don't have to, you 
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know, to drink. Have coffee houses. I remember being so impressed when I heard in the, this was 
in the '70s, about the coffee houses that started up in Minneapolis, in the Unitarian church, I 
think it was early-- Maybe it wasn't the Unitarian church, it was another church. But Friday 
nights, and-- when I left, I don't know what it's like now, but I, when I left Minnesota, they had a 
program Friday night and Saturday night and Sunday night for lesbians, and no alcohol. What 
strikes me the most, I think, are the, the young women who feel, who are really open and very 
proud and, you know, being lesbian. I mean, I initially thought of it as some kind of an affliction, 
and that, that certainly didn't seem to be very acceptable. And I would sit and listen to, in staff 
meetings and stuff, it definitely, a person's sexual orientation, if you talked about-- it certainly 
was seen as, as an illness. So, I think that, certainly, there's that difference, for most people now 
do not consider homosexuality as an illness. Most people are prone to accept it as a choice, as a 
lifestyle. Well, I don't know about most people, but most people in my circle. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  11:29 
Yeah, well, in the professional psychological community anyway. 
 
Margaret Anderson  11:33 
Right, that community, I'm sure in the redneck community it's still as unacceptable as it always 
was. Obviously, you know, ordinances don't get through with the problems that have been 
coming up in the Seattle area, that council, council member. But I think that the kind of pride 
that people have and the willingness to put themselves out on the line that I see with the both gay 
and lesbian people. You know, I'm probably not a very good observer of this.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  12:17 
Do you think if you were 13 years old now you would be, you would have done it differently, I 
mean as far as thinking about being a lesbian and? 
 
Margaret Anderson  12:29 
Yeah, I probably wouldn't have wasted those 10 years, you know, between 18 and 28 dating both 
men and women, and trying to decide, did I want to get married or not, you know, sort of.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  12:42 
Did you feel-- you didn't feel a pressure from your family, but certainly you must have felt the 
pressure from--  
 
Margaret Anderson  12:47 
Just that social, yeah, social pressure. All my friends were dating, yeah. And I didn't have, other 
than, you know, my relationship with Benj, which was, I didn't have lesbian friends, you know. 
Benj and I just had this little relationship that we kept quiet. We had, we had a group of friends, 
and I don't know if anybody had awareness of our relationship or not, but it was never talked 
about. It's all, and all the other women that we knew dated, they eventually got married and had 
kids and stuff. I'm sure there's, there's a difference, now, certainly, in the fact that the people 
don't have the roles. I like the fact that there's not that stereotyping, the butch and femme kind of 
roles. It's more different, it's a different stereotyping now [inaudible]. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  13:54 
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There's definitely butch and femme around it's just not--  
 
Margaret Anderson  13:56 
Yeah, there is, and I think about some of those people I see in leather. That's something like, I 
don't understand. I don't understand those people that are dressing in-- 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  13:56 
Does that bother you? 
 
Margaret Anderson  14:10 
Well, it concerns me. You know, in terms of, that, I think of that as men pressing women, 
somehow. And, and yet I know I have, I know some people who are into S&M and talk about it 
being a matter of trust, and these particular people that I know of are not people who are, I mean, 
they're sensitive, caring people. They're not really into leather and stuff they have a few [?little 
accoutrements?] in their closet. It's just something I don't, I don't understand, wouldn't 
understand for myself. And then I think when it gets to people hurting themselves, that kind of 
concerns me. Now, I must tell you, though, that I did undergo a SAR which is a sexual attitude 
readjustment training. You know, when I, when I trained, I did a program for human sexuality, at 
University of Minnesota, years ago, I trained as a sexual counselor. One of the things that you, 
you undergo is sexual adjustment, sexual attitude readjustment.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  15:28 
What does that entail?  
 
Margaret Anderson  15:30 
Oh, well, part of it, I know one time until, like a huge room, probably two stories high and 
circular, in five different movies all at one time, going and in all those different, all different 
kinds of sexual activity, between a man and a woman, between men, between women, between 
animals. Just all these kinds, different kinds of sexual behavior so that your eyes just sort of went 
back and forth. And eventually, after a couple hours of that, you begin to realize there isn't that 
much difference between any other sexual behavior, different levels of sexual behavior. And on 
some level, I, you know, I understand that. And so that I, I wouldn't not be friends with 
somebody because they were engaged in certain kinds of sexual activity. I don't understand some 
of it, when I, when I listen to some of my male friends talk about the baths and the special rooms 
at the baths, and that sort of blows my mind. And I feel sad because, you know, now, looking 
back, he knows, that he's set himself up for AIDS. [Inaudible]. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  16:51 
That fascinates me. Did that, that training, was that supposed to teach you to not be surprised of 
anything and to be able to accept any sort of sexual behavior?  
 
Margaret Anderson  17:03 
Yeah, it's a desensitization, that was just part of the training.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  17:10 
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Interesting. How do you, how do you feel about the differences in the gay community, as 
opposed to the lesbian community.  
 
Margaret Anderson  17:25 
I don't think it's a matter of feel. It's a matter of someone's just not understanding. I mean, I just 
don't understand that, but I accept it. And I think you don't always have to understand things in 
order to accept them. And I, and so I accept the way that that's the way that the men's sexuality. 
For many of the men, that's how their sexuality is expressed with casual contacts or lots of 
different partners. I just don't understand it. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  18:02 
Yeah, there are probably a lot of gay men who don't understand it either, you know, who don't 
live that lifestyle.  
 
Margaret Anderson  18:13 
I guess, maybe there are.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  18:19 
You talk a lot about alcoholism in the lesbian community. There seems, it seems to be a very 
large problem.  
 
Margaret Anderson  18:28 
I think in the gay and lesbian community, alcoholism is a problem. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  18:34 
As well as in the world of bars, right? 
 
Margaret Anderson  18:37 
Right. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  18:39 
Can you tell me why you think that is? 
 
Margaret Anderson  18:41 
Why it's a problem-- 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  18:42 
Yeah. 
 
Margaret Anderson  18:43 
 --period?  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  18:43 
Yeah, what sort of things contribute to it, maybe? 
 
Margaret Anderson  18:46 
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One of the most this doesn't explain how it all started in the beginning, but one of the major 
factors now, I think they're finding, is that if a person has alcoholism in the family, especially in 
the immediate family, they stand a very good chance of developing problems with alcohol 
themselves, become an alcoholic. And there certainly seems to be some kind of genetic factors 
involved, I think. For lesbian and gay, I think part of it is that so much of the activity takes place 
in the bar scene and people-- And I think there were times when people didn't feel good about 
themselves or didn't, before, you know, it became okay to be a lesbian.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  19:38 
When did that happen?  
 
Margaret Anderson  19:40 
Well, at least a bit more okay than it used to be. People drink a lot, for whatever reasons, but, to 
forget or to feel okay. And a lot of people drink for those reasons, but I think just a lot of the 
socializing was around, more around alcohol. I think another problem certainly was in 
community, [inaudible]. For some, a lot of them had incest issues too, physical and sexual abuse 
issues seemed to be more prevalent in the lesbian community.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  20:33 
Do you see that there's a real lack of outreach to the lesbian community as far as alcoholism is 
concerned? Do you think that lesbians need a specific kind of help and treatment for alcoholism?  
 
Margaret Anderson  20:49 
Well, yeah, I think that they need a specific, in that, I think that it should probably be with, with 
lesbians, with recovering lesbians. I think it's, it's hard enough, you know, to open up, opening 
up to somebody who's straight. I mean, that's not to say that there aren't straight people who have 
lots of empathy and who are very helpful, there certainly are. But I think there are a lot of 
straight people who, on some level, the homophobia comes through when they're dealing with 
lesbians and gays in a therapy setting, treatment setting. I think somebody who's gotten to be 
tuned into the fact that the, those other, other things may have existed in terms of the incest and 
abuse, and there are plenty of people who are really good, who know that. I think there's 
probably, in this community, I think it was very wrong about [inaudible], the chemical 
dependency program, CDP, which tries to reach out to the gay and lesbian population. And 
certainly they have, there's lots of good, solid gay AA programs here. The Alano club on Capitol 
Hill, too, is, you go to a woman's Saturday night meeting at 5:30 and there can be 70, I mean, 
there's been as many as 70 people in that room, although the room is only supposed to hold 50 
now; fire marshal puts the foot down, so the overflow has to go to another room. But that's a 
huge number, because Saturday night is also for [inaudible]. But there are lots, a lot of lesbians 
and gays going to programs, there are daily meetings up there, several times a day. Lot of people 
in the community, a lot of other gay meetings around, not just in that location. There's a lot of 
support in this community to sober up. Like the new restaurant, Wild Rose, certainly has some, I 
think that's a great place. It's too bad they don't have some dancing there, but it's great in terms of 
they don't push the alcohol. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  23:19 
They provide a lot of non-alcoholic drinks?  
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Margaret Anderson  23:22 
Yeah, they put in a lot of effort to do that. I don't know what else to say about that. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  23:32 
I've just become aware of it recently and [inaudible]-- 
 
Margaret Anderson  23:36 
The alcohol problem? 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  23:37 
Yeah, I guess I'm meeting more and more people who are recovering alcoholics, or are 
alcoholics or adult children of alcoholics. 
 
Margaret Anderson  23:46 
Yeah, one of the things that I think is great now, that people catch on faster, and there are still 
some people who are gonna go the chorus and drink for a number of years. But the awareness 
and the things that, the public attention, that people are sobering up at younger ages or becoming 
aware that they have a problem, or friends or lovers are becoming aware.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  24:15 
Well, I was going to ask you about, now, you just said that you're beginning a second career for 
the next 25 years, in the next 25 years. What do you see-- How do you see your new career? 
 
Margaret Anderson  24:32 
How do I see it?  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  24:33 
Yeah, what-- What do you see for yourself, you know, in this new job? 
 
Margaret Anderson  24:38 
Well, I certainly think that I'll be there. I could see myself certainly being there at least five 
years, maybe 10, I don't know. Certainly in 10 years I'll be, you know, retirement age, or close to 
it. And I don't know if I will stay in Minneapolis and, you know, in time whether I'll end up back 
in Duluth, or whether I might even end up back in Winnipeg, you know, at least where I started, 
and [?have it go?] full circle. I am really looking forward to, to reconnecting with both friends 
and professional people that I know in Minneapolis. And I would think, within the, within the 
year, maybe having a small private practice, and I think that being an option there. I do have to, 
within the next year, also get my alcohol counseling certification, so I have to work on that. But I 
also, I'm excited about being back in the community and having a lot more workshops, training, 
things available. Now, those things may go on in Seattle, but I wasn't privy to them because I 
wasn't in the psychiatric community. But I do suspect that there's a lot more going on in 
Minneapolis at that level. So, I foresee just being involved in the lesbian community and doing 
some private practice and, I don't know, I'm pretty open. Whatever comes along, maybe more 
political involvement, that's a possibility, because Minneapolis is, it's been an open city. Two 
people, actually, in the Minnesota legislature who were out, one man and one woman were 
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openly out and the man on the Minneapolis City Council is openly out, so there's a lot of political 
activity there.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  26:51 
Do you look forward to reaching a retirement age? Are you going to retire when you're 65? 
 
Margaret Anderson  26:57 
No, I don't think so. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  26:57 
I can't see it. 
 
Margaret Anderson  26:57 
I don't think I could afford to. I think I had my retirement those two years that I cashed in my 
retirement monies and stayed home. No, I don't see myself, actually quotes retiring. I don't have 
the I have-- You know, I have these friends I was visiting, [?friends in Phoenix?] who are 
building up this like pension fund. They've, they're man and wife in private practice, you know, 
incorporated, and have really got this pension fund-- Now that, they're gonna retire. I can fairly 
see that, but I don't think I'm gonna be able to afford to retire. And-- 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  27:37 
Would you want to? 
 
Margaret Anderson  27:41 
No, I don't think so. I think I would always want to be active on some level.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  27:49 
Do you look-- are you afraid of turning, you know, getting into your 60s and your 70s?  
 
Margaret Anderson  27:54 
Not now, I was really afraid when I turned 50, and my fear was related to, you know, my 50th 
birthday and my relationship ending happening the same month. And, and I was just terrified, I 
was just terrified that I was going to end up alone and this-- All I could think of was, "Oh, my 
God, [?I'm going to be alone?]." Well, for one thing, I found it's not so bad to be alone. I've been 
alone now for three and a half years, almost, well, four years, and that's not all that bad. And 
alone is what you make of it. I mean, does that mean like, sleep alone or, you know, eat alone? I 
mean, I don't spend very much time alone, actually, and I sleep with my cat. No, I'm not afraid. I 
was, but I'm not anymore. And I don't know what I, what I can attribute that to except, I think, 
just getting better, just recovering. Recovering both from the loss of relationship and recovering 
from alcoholism. When I-- and when I talk about recovery, I'm talking about it in a spiritual and 
emotional recovery, not the physical. That was the least of my problems, in a way, I think I, my 
problem was one of a spiritual and emotional. And I think actually spiritually probably, is 
probably the most important spectrum.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  29:28 
Do you feel like a new woman? [?You sound like you feel--?]  
Page 10 of 17 
 
 
Margaret Anderson  29:32 
[?Am I a new woman?]? Well, sometimes I feel old and creaky. The one thing I don't like, you 
know, about getting older, you know, is your body gets sore. You know, you get aches and pains, 
you don't have as, I don't know, the same kind of physical ability, and that's probably because I 
don't exercise. And I, I think that if I were to pay a lot more attention to diet and exercise, I 
wouldn't have complaints. And so that's one of the things I'm trying to decide that I'm gonna do, 
also is pay more attention to that, like, we'll see if that happens, if I go and maybe do a whole 
new thing or not.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  30:19 
Are you concerned about menopause?  
 
Margaret Anderson  30:23 
Oh, concerned about it?  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  30:24 
Are you afraid of it? 
 
Margaret Anderson  30:25 
Afraid of it?  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  30:29 
Yeah. 
 
Margaret Anderson  30:29 
I haven't had, I don't know, I haven't had a period in, since January of '79. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  30:41 
So, you've been through it?  
 
Margaret Anderson  30:42 
Yeah, I had one the previous July. It was the last one that I remember, in July of '78 and then I 
went into treatment. The month I was in treatment, I had two periods, and that was it, I haven't 
been having them since. And I've gone through the night sweats.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  30:58 
Was that difficult?  
 
Margaret Anderson  30:59 
It was unpleasant at times, and, and it was unpleasant-- and when I was going through those, I 
was still with Rosemary, and we always slept together, and that would be real uncomfortable, she 
would get awfully, I mean, I would get really warm, and it would just be uncomfortable having 
closeness. But I'm through them, the hot flashes weren't all that bad.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  31:21 
Page 11 of 17 
 
Was it emotionally difficult for you? 
 
Margaret Anderson  31:25 
No, no, no it wasn't. You know, and I realize that it is a problem for some people. I did have 
some depression feelings, but now, looking back, I don't know whether the depressed, that 
depression I was experiencing was related to menopause or to alcoholism or to both. Doesn't 
matter.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  31:47 
Were your recovery and the menopause happening at the same time? I understand that your 
recovery didn't happen in a month, but--  
 
Margaret Anderson  31:55 
Yeah, right, right. Yeah, so they were sort of around the same time, I stopped drinking, I stopped 
having periods.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  32:03 
You think that's a coincidence? 
 
Margaret Anderson  32:08 
No, but I hadn't thought of it, [inaudible], I'll have to explore that. [Inaudible] I don't know that 
there's, I've never seen anything in writing about that. One of the things that, for some of the 
people in treatment, some of them talked about how once they sobered up, the, they felt a 
resurgence of, sort of, sexual feeling and drive. And that wasn't true for me. And somehow I 
think that maybe that was because being older, being menopausal, and also, of course, a lot of 
women talk about being much more sexual after menopause. But I think for me, the whole 
emotional business of the loss of relationship, [inaudible]. And I've been basically celibate since 
I came out here, just one, a relationship that I got into and with this moment for a brief time, and 
there's maybe about two weeks of that relationship that, you know, was sexual and it was clear 
that this was not going to be relationship for us. So I stayed, I stayed living with her, and we 
stayed living as friends until we made other plans, but basically, I consider myself celibate. And, 
but, I've been in love a couple times since I've been over here. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  33:41 
Would you like to change that? 
 
Margaret Anderson  33:43 
Celibacy? If it happens, it happens. Yeah, you know, if it doesn't, you know, it's-- there's no real 
push, there's no tense, you know, thing that's got to happen. I said I'm sort of romantic, and if it 
happens, fine. I'm aware that loving friends are very important, and, sort of, my life consists of 
friendships, a lot of love and nurturing that, I would consider myself very fortunate. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  34:24 
Have you ever wanted to have children? 
 
Margaret Anderson  34:25 
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Yes, I think when I was probably in my late 20s and early 30s, there was probably a period of 
about five years there or so, when I really thought about wanting to have children, but I got over 
it. It wasn't as intense, you know, but there was a period of time when I thought that would be 
nice. And I think that would be nice now. I wish now, on some level, that I was a mother, that 
there were, there were some children around. And the other thing I was really aware of, the time 
that I was child bearing age, and the time that I would have been raising the child, I was 
drinking. And, and so I'm glad that I didn't, because I would just perpetuate in that system. I 
would not have been a good mother.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  34:32 
Do you-- you have any children who are close to you, your nieces and nephews?  
 
Margaret Anderson  35:29 
Yeah, yeah, they are.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  35:31 
How old are they?  
 
Margaret Anderson  35:33 
Margaret, Anne, [inaudible], specifically, Margaret Anne is about 31 to 32. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  35:40 
So, they're not children anymore.  
 
Margaret Anderson  35:41 
No, they're not. And Johnny is 29, they're not. There was this, on the plane yesterday, there was 
this little girl sitting beside me, was probably about five, very talkative and very active, with a 
mother who didn't know how to deal with her other than to hit her every once in a while, to make 
her be quiet. But she, she just started off with saying, "Are you a grandma, you look like a 
grandma", and then, "Are you married? Where's your husband?" You know, we went on with 
those conversations. Talked all the way from San Francisco to Seattle. [?wanted to say?], "Shut 
up, I'm doing this tomorrow," no, I was trying to read the paper, but I gave it up. There was my, 
Rosemary's new partner has a daughter, who's now 11, that I first met when she was six. Oh 
maybe she's 12, [?that's a long walk?]. And I was very fond of her, and of course, and, and her 
mother was someone who was, I was involved with in AA, who was an important person to me, 
to recovery. But I-- that little girl is real special [inaudible]. She's now decided that she wants to 
go live with her father and her new stepmother. She's not so happy living with two lesbians, so I 
won't be seeing her when I go back, she'll have left to Ohio. But I maintained some contact with 
her for a while. But there hasn't really been any children in my life.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  37:28 
Would you be interested in co-parenting with another woman?  
 
Margaret Anderson  37:33 
Yeah, I could see that. It certainly has problems. I think at my age, I don't know, I could almost 
be co-grandparent. But I, yeah, I would, I think I would enjoy that. Although, it does, does 
Page 13 of 17 
 
change your life, having, living with children is a big, big responsibility. I really appreciate my 
friends in Phoenix and how, how much they have put into their parenting, and how much time it 
has taken, they have four teenagers, and how much they have given of themselves. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  38:16 
Are you close to those kids? 
 
Margaret Anderson  38:19 
Yes, when they were younger, I was probably. But then, as I say, you know, maybe every two 
years when I'd see them, they'd changed so much. But I sort of follow them and know what's 
going on with them, but I don't think that, I don't have the same connection with [inaudible]. But 
I would say, if I would, if I were living in Phoenix, it would have been very different. And when 
they were younger, and I spent more time there, and maybe I was there yearly, and I might be 
there for a week, 10 days, you know, those years, it was a stronger connection. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  39:04 
Are there any, I guess, grand nieces and nephews on the way?  
 
Margaret Anderson  39:10 
I have one grand nephew. My niece, Sandra, has a son, Matthew. And she [inaudible], I think we 
talked about--  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  39:23 
His father?  
 
Margaret Anderson  39:24 
Yeah, they did not get married, and so-- Sandra trained as an airline mechanic, and she's working 
as an airline mechanic in a small airport outside of Ottawa. She was so ethereal, schitzy, when 
she was a little. I kept, you know, I kept thinking, "Oh my god," about her working as a 
mechanic on airplanes. But she also was very bright. I'm sure she's very competent.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  39:57 
Those were the two people you came out to when they were visiting?  
 
Margaret Anderson  40:03 
Yeah, I never did with Sandra, but with Margaret Anne and Johnny, yeah. Both of them, they 
knew, they knew well before their father knew. [Telephone rings]. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  40:15 
[?Want to?] answer your phone? 
 
Margaret Anderson  40:16 
I've got it on the answering machine. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  40:18 
Page 14 of 17 
 
Oh, okay. Your other relationships after Rosemary, I'm trying to get this straight, [?excuse me?]. 
Rosemary was before you moved to Seattle? 
 
Margaret Anderson  40:36 
Right, right. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  40:37 
 Was there, and that was [?about?] four years ago? 
 
Margaret Anderson  40:42 
Yeah, almost four years, going to be four years this fall.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  40:44 
Okay, so you had another long relationship with someone before Rosemary? 
 
Margaret Anderson  40:50 
Yeah, there were two relationships before Rosemary. I'd been with the one woman for four years, 
the one that was an ex-nun.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  40:57 
And you haven't told me about her. You told me about the one before then, right?  
 
Margaret Anderson  41:01 
Nancy, the one I was with for nine years?  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  41:03 
Yeah. 
 
Margaret Anderson  41:03 
Well, the one was an ex-nun. She was a very, very beautiful woman, long, dark red hair, [?real 
light skin, brown eyes?]. She's a very special person, very loyal and very loving. She really 
didn't, she didn't like the kind of work I did, she didn't ever want to talk about it, she didn't really 
like the people I worked with, she didn't really want to associate with other lesbians. And she 
was an RN, and she'd come back, you know, after shift and she'd talk about sometimes patients 
and the doctors and I think we got kind of bored with each other, it was too bad. And at the time 
when I wanted for us to go for some joint counsel, she didn't want to do that. Then Rosemary 
came on the scene, and I was just blown away, I was blown away. I was 42 and Rosemary was 
24. Although, Rosemary always seemed like she was in her 30s, she was so open, she took such 
emotional risks. I just fell and I consider her the love of my life. I'm sure that there might be 
somebody else out there. And, but Jane, who was the four year relationship, what can I say? 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  41:04 
You were 42? 
 
Margaret Anderson  42:31 
When I was with Rosemary, yeah. 
Page 15 of 17 
 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  42:40 
Okay, so, how old was Jane? So, you were 38 when you were with, got together with Jane. 
 
Margaret Anderson  42:52 
Let's see, how old was she at the time? She was nine years younger, [inaudible] younger than 
me. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  43:01 
Was she recently out of the convent when you met her? 
 
Margaret Anderson  43:03 
Yes, she had-- She came to work for the program that I worked at. She worked in the children's 
program at the Medical Center. We had a special program there. And she came to work there in 
September and she'd left the convent the previous February. So she hadn't been out quite a year. 
She'd been in the convent for about six years.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  43:33 
Was this in Duluth? 
 
Margaret Anderson  43:28 
Yes, she was a Benedictine. A neat woman, I really, you know. I think after I left her, I used to, I 
think I cried, I think I cried for about six months off and on about her. I mean, I left, I felt a lot of 
guilt for a long time, I really did. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  44:05 
Do you think that-- what did she do? She was a nurse.  
 
Margaret Anderson  44:09 
Right, she became an RN. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  44:11 
Do you think that her being a nun had any effect on your relationship, or?  
 
Margaret Anderson  44:20 
I don't think so.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  44:21 
She wasn't a nun very long, not really. 
 
Margaret Anderson  44:22 
Six years. No, I think, I think her family background-- she was sort of depressed. She'd been 
raised with a mother who had an unusual, debilitating illness. A very demanding, narcissistic 
woman, and so I think that, I think her family situation. Jane was very shy and reserved, but if 
she finally felt safe, emotionally, and loosened up, she was very talented, very funny. She's a real 
special person and I wish that, well, that we could have some kind of contact, but we don't. She 
Page 16 of 17 
 
didn't want that after about a year or so, used to see her on a regular basis, we would go out to 
dinner once a month or something. After about, maybe not quite a year of that, she said that that 
didn't make any sense to her. That was probably smart. I just didn't want to let go.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  45:35 
Do you plan on going back to Winnipeg? 
 
Margaret Anderson  45:38 
To live?  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  45:38 
Yeah, you mentioned that you didn't know.  
 
Margaret Anderson  45:40 
Yeah, not really. I don't plan on that, I don't think. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  45:44 
No Canada at all?  
 
Margaret Anderson  45:48 
No, but, you know, you never can tell. I mean, it's an option. There's that family home there now 
that my nephew owns. I don't think so, I think that that would be kind of lonely. I see myself 
more as almost staying around and being close to friends. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  46:09 
Do you have dual citizenship?  
 
Margaret Anderson  46:10 
No, I'm Canadian, I'm here as an alien.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  46:13 
Oh, for all these years? 
 
Margaret Anderson  46:15 
 Yeah. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  46:16 
Did you have the opportunity or the-- did you at any time have dual citizenship?  
 
Margaret Anderson  46:20 
No, no.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  46:21 
So, did you have a chance to become an American citizen if you wanted? 
 
Margaret Anderson  46:24 
Page 17 of 17 
 
I could have had-- I once made, declared my first intention. I don't know if they still do that or 
not, but I, I went someplace once and did a, made a legal statement, that I intended to become a 
citizen. That was just several months before Kennedy was shot, and then that angered me so 
much, I decided that I didn't want to be a citizen of a country that went around shooting 
presidents. I don't know why I had that reaction, but I did.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  46:49 
Do you still feel the same way? Are you, would you-- Are you happy being, not being an 
American anyway?  
 
Margaret Anderson  46:56 
Yeah, it doesn't seem to matter.  
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  46:58 
Yeah. Do you vote in Canada?  
 
Margaret Anderson  47:00 
No, no, I don't have a vote either place. And so that maybe doesn't make a difference. I 
politically acted the times when I wanted to be-- The only time I've ever really gone knocking on 
people's doors was for George McGovern. I told people why I thought they should vote for him. 
 
Kristin Boughton-Morin  47:19 
And then you couldn't even vote for him. 
 
Margaret Anderson  47:20 
Right. But he did, he did get the-- [recording stops]. 
 